DISQUS

geechee_girl · 8 months ago

I hear that. I think that auto follow is not in keeping with the "authentic" vibe Twitter has going as a trust network, BUT... I don't have to use it, and I don't HAVE to follow people who do if I don't want to, though I do. That's why I manually check profiles, so I can decide as I go. Not my place to set the rules for anyone but me, so to speak.

Bruce Lewis · 8 months ago

Facebook came across pushy to me from the start, when it demanded my real birthday. I gave an approximate one.

chaz2b · 8 months ago

thank you mr. gray for reminding people and Co's what drives the internet, the people themselves!

friarminor · 8 months ago

Ah, control. It's becoming cumbersome telling companies about it. But, I definitely have no problem lauding the efforts of those who try their darn best to rectify such error.

Auto-follow? And I thought it was their revenue model....

Mitch · 8 months ago

Louis: Your memory is shit. How can you ignore all the evolution Twitter has gone through to suit how people want to use their service? Your comments here are utterly ridiculous. Leave emotion and bias at the door next time please.

micahwittman · 8 months ago

Preach! Autofollow issues don't even matter much one way or another to me personally at this point. But attitude counts for a lot, and this is not gaining them any points from the users who are/might be/used to be/could be again passionate about the service, but don't appreciate the heavy-handed priesthood affectation.

Laura Kennedy · 8 months ago

Great thoughts here....My favorite response to being told....There are no rules in marketing or networking, only guidelines. Each person has to create what works for them!

Dawn · 8 months ago

If Twitter users only did what the developers wanted, everybody would just be saying things like "I'm taking out the trash" and "I just ate half a pizza." Twitter should be thanking their lucky stars - and thanking their users! - that people did their own thing and didn't listen to how it's "supposed" to work.

Richard A. · 8 months ago

Dawn, I agree with you, I've been saying the same for months by now.

Louis Gray · 8 months ago

Agree, Dawn. it's astounding how they seem to limit their own potential.

warzabidul · 8 months ago

Have you noticed how the conversation has become much weaker on twitter since people have become obsessed with following thousands?

At the sam time they encourage us to follow random people so they are just as much to blame as the auto-following crowd.

Mitch · 8 months ago

I don't see it that way at all Louis. Have you tried putting yourself in their shoes? They're not a little startup anymore. Who was it that wrote the article about a year ago on early adopters promoting and helping a new startup in their early phase, but eventually turning against the service when they outgrew the need for that person's opinion? I desperately want to find that article and bookmark the hell out of it.

Richard A. · 8 months ago

And that's why I'm moving away from twitter as a primary communication mode. Twitter is far less engaging than it was.

Mitch · 8 months ago

Also, stop listening to people telling you how to use their products. Screw 'em.

Robert Scoble · 8 months ago

Mitch: good one! :-)

Mitch · 8 months ago

Thanks, now get me FriendFeed beta! Stop telling me to wait for Monday, FriendFeed! J/K I love you FF.

Leather ♥ Donut · 8 months ago

Guess Louis Gray has finally jumped the shark and become the Scoble Mini-Me. And Jesse Stay is the the Louis Gray Mini-Me. Seriously Louis, the hubris that YOU and Scoble exhibit around the FF interface "coming Monday" is equally appalling. This is not supposed to be a show of the haves and have nots. So you got a preview, great. Grow up and stop being smug about it. It's childish.

Chris Charabaruk · 8 months ago

I think I'm doing something smart with Taskerrific. If all goes according to plan, it'll work best for GTD types, but still be a great task list manager for everyone else. I will not force David Allen on you (unless that's what you want, but his wife might have something to say about that).

Dawn · 8 months ago

I think this all stems from developers not understanding human behavior and not designing apps more purposefully from the get-go. Twitter's success was a fluke. It was like spaghetti they tossed on the wall to see if it would stick. *Of course*, the users should be able to put their own sauce on it. But if it were a carefully created recipe by a "Top Chef" then pouring ketchup over it would be an act of violence. IMO, Twitter gave up the right to tell their users how to use Twitter when they served us up a plate of noodles with no salt or pepper, much less sauce. They can't take it all back now. Too late. It's MY DISH now.

Louis Gray · 8 months ago

Leather, I like your sentiment, but you can't find one post from me where I go on about the preview. I mentioned in a single tweet that I was at the briefing, and that's it. How can you interpret my comments on Biz telling user how to act (or how not to) and make a direct line toward this?

Louis Gray · 8 months ago

Dawn is on a roll.

Robert Scoble · 8 months ago

Louis: yeah, it's the first thing I've agreed with Dawn on in a while. Keep it up Dawn!

Dawn · 8 months ago

I hope it has butter! ;)

Dawn · 8 months ago

LOL Just keep talk away from politics and we'll be okay, Robert. ;)

Louis Gray · 8 months ago

If all anybody gets from this post is that Dawn is a great lady to subscribe to, then I will have accomplished something. Agreeing all the time is not required. :)

Laura · 8 months ago

That is exactly what I got out of this post, Louis (plus, I agree with the post - well said)!

Mona · 8 months ago

Facebook changed the game by using force. They have a service that works - just look how they treat their employees. The people up top have a goal and they'll do whatever it takes to make their visions a reality. Twitter, on the other hand is a fluke LOL

Dawn · 8 months ago

What a nice thing to say, Louis. Thank you very much.

Mitch · 8 months ago

Yeah Dawn that was a pretty killer metaphor.

Dawn · 8 months ago

Thank, Mitch. Mona, so what's Zuckerberg's "goal" and "visions" besides trying to make a profit? Don't get me started on Facebook. I'll fall off the roll real quick. ;)

Robert Scoble · 8 months ago

Dawn: Zuckerberg tells me he wants to have the world's best social graph. IE, rolodex.

Dawn · 8 months ago

Ha! Four new subscribers in just a few minutes and at this late hour. You're powerful, Louis! ;)

Richard A. · 8 months ago

@Dawn, Europe is waking up though, and some of us Europeans use FF :-)

Robert Scoble · 8 months ago

Dawn: when Louis tells me to subscribe, I do! :-)

Richard A. · 8 months ago

Facebook is going to fail just like the mobile phone did ;-)

Dawn · 8 months ago

Robert: And that's why Facebook is going to fail. It's not HIS social graph. It's yours and mine and Louis' and Mitch's and Mona's....

Robert Scoble · 8 months ago

Dawn: stop being so cynical. It keeps us from having a decent conversation. Of course it's all of ours. When I said that, I mean he wants to be like the best Yellow Pages around. Best font. Best layout. Best grouping. Etc etc etc.

Dawn · 8 months ago

Mark my words: Facebook is going to be less than half it's current size within two or three years.

Dawn · 8 months ago

There is ZERO reason for people to stay loyal to Facebook beyong "all my friends are there." So what? All your friends can be somewhere else in three minutes flat.

Mona · 8 months ago

Dawn - Superb comment, btw. Not sure if I mentioned it ;) As for the Zuck - as much as I hate to admit it, the man is a visionary. He successfully broke a lot of barriers and enabled people to become more transparent. He also familiarized the mainstream with Soc Nets. Twitter's success has a lot to do with Facebook, too. As for his ultimate goal: Google Dreamforce and see if the conf. slides are online. I saw the literature and they have big things planned.

Robert Scoble · 8 months ago

Dawn: now we're disagreeing again. That didn't take long.

Suban · 8 months ago

Louis, no one really uses FriendFeed at least compared to Facebook and Twitter, so they are the one's who have got it wrong.

Jesse Stay · 8 months ago

Dawn, MySpace hasn't even done that - perhaps, if it were to happen, you would see less activity, but people just don't delete accounts these days.

Robert Scoble · 8 months ago

Right now Facebook is growing a Twitter every 15 days or so. Just passed 200 million users.

Robert Scoble · 8 months ago

Dawn: even Myspace, which has sucked for more than a year hasn't gone down in size that much. It's just that Facebook outgrew it. Momentum on these things does not change that quickly. Facebook is going to be bigger in two or three years than it is today. Even if they screw up over and over and over they will be bigger. Just like Microsoft is bigger today than it was eight years ago (and it's screwed up over and over and over). Momentum is NOT something you can explain away easily.

Dawn · 8 months ago

LOL No surprise there. The thing is, Robert, you understand technology. I understand anthropology. Anthropology trumps technology in the long run. And Facebook has a lot of problems.

Robert Scoble · 8 months ago

Dawn: I understand a lot more about anthropology than you know. Facebook has a lot of problems, but it has people seriously addicted. You need to travel the world more and hear from everyday people about why and how.

Mona · 8 months ago

I highly doubt it. I'm willing to put money on it. What other service can: treat their employees like crap, treat third party developers like crap, the worst UX ever, use their customers (users) as guinea pigs while monetizing and STILL keep growing?

Dawn · 8 months ago

Mona: A service without a true competitor. But the day is coming.

Robert Scoble · 8 months ago

Dawn: even if there were a good competitor people are locked into Facebook with a million hooks. Like Velcro. They won't leave easily. Twitter has only one hook and even it survived far superior technologies. This is NOT about technologies. It's about how these sites hook you in. Facebook has everyone hooked in so well that they can't leave even when unhappy.

Dawn · 8 months ago

Okay, Robert. We'll see what it's like in a few years. :) In the meantime, I'm going to bed. Good night!

Louis Gray · 8 months ago

Just last night, my wife was talking to me about how she was going to leave Facebook. She didn't. Many others I bet also wonder why they invest time in it. But they are "hooked".

Jesse Stay · 8 months ago

Mona, Twitter

Robert Scoble · 8 months ago

Dawn: I've been doing online communities since 1984 and Facebook is going to be the one for a long time. I also get to see six months into the future due to entrepreneurs showing me what they are working on and nothing is coming soon to challenge it. New friendfeed coming on Monday will get friendfeed to grow to next level but won't slow down Facebook at all and friendfeed is the only real mindshare competitor out there for Facebook. All the others except Twitterare dying as Facebook is gaining marketshare.

Mona · 8 months ago

That's what people said about Mixi - the Japanese Facebook, but they are bigger and stronger than ever. Mark Twain said: "History doesnt repeat itself, but it does rhyme." If you factor in everything, we (the US) is where Japan was, several years ago. Think about it: from mobile phones, social networking, to enterprise, periodicals, to even commerce, things keep changing and becoming interdependent. Facebook exploded at the right time. No other service will take its place.

John E. Bredehoft · 8 months ago

Um, I just wanted to remind everyone that this here Internet was originally created for the sole purpose of U.S. defense research. So stop all these cute baby pictures....Seriously, when users get to choose how a tool is used, innovation often ensues, even if - especially if - the tool is used in the wrong way.

Robert Scoble · 8 months ago

Mona is right.

Dawn · 8 months ago

Okay, one last comment... You can say the same thing about people in bad marriages. Right now, divorce is falling big time because people can't afford to split. But the recession isn't going to last forever. And neither will Facebook's claim to the market. When the time is right, people are going to jump in droves.

Robert Scoble · 8 months ago

Jesse Twitter is something different from Facebook. The two are NOT competitors even though some users think they are. My wife is NOT going to get into Twitter. She likes the privateness and is hooked deeply into the velcro of Facebook.

Jesse Stay · 8 months ago

Robert, I agree - I was just answering her question, "What other service can: treat their employees like crap, treat third party developers like crap, the worst UX ever, use their customers (users) as guinea pigs while monetizing and STILL keep growing?" The answer is Twitter.

Mitch · 8 months ago

That perfectly sums it up Mr Bredehoft. It sums up the evolution of practically all human development through technology, actually.

Robert Scoble · 8 months ago

Dawn: such an event will take years to happen. Even MySpace is dying slowly and it really sucks when compared to Facebook and has for years.

Mona · 8 months ago

Jesse - Twitter is a fluke. It's like AOL's IM. Corporations, teenagers, to adults use it. A great supplementary communication tool, but otherwise useless. Twitter has NOTHING on Facebook. The big difference is monetization.

John E. Bredehoft · 8 months ago

Examples of things used in the wrong way: missiles used to put astronauts in space, the Usenet alt.* hierarchy, MS-DOS on Compaq and other non-IBM computers, Twitter @replies, the lastfmfeeds FriendFeed room...others?

Robert Scoble · 8 months ago

Everytime I've tried to predict the death of something I was both right and wrong. Almost every company dies if you wait long enough. Facebook probably will die if you look at a 100 to 500 year horizon. But in two years? Give me a break. No way, no how. For that to happen you have to have a dramatically better idea in development right now and I can tell you there is NOT one in development right now.

Jesse Stay · 8 months ago

Mona, I agree - I was just answering your question, ""What other service can: treat their employees like crap, treat third party developers like crap, the worst UX ever, use their customers (users) as guinea pigs while monetizing and STILL keep growing?" The answer is Twitter. :-)

Robert Scoble · 8 months ago

Jesse: momentum is not an easy thing to turn around even when you try. :-)

Dawn · 8 months ago

Robert: But there is one on the drawing board.

Mona · 8 months ago

Monetization, Jesse. Facebook is generating some sort of revenue while Twitter selling an ad gets headlines LOL

John E. Bredehoft · 8 months ago

Even MySpace has its hooks. I know of a long-time MySpace user who recently joined Facebook (not me, someone else). The new user's first question - "How do you change the backgrounds?" Now everyone except CADIE knows that changing the backgrounds in Facebook is "wrong" - but try telling that to users.

Mona · 8 months ago

John - the demographic and purpose is shifting. Myspace caters to the music crowd. Though that is slowly changing, since Facebook enabled pages to have similar functions as profiles.

Jesse Stay · 8 months ago

Mona, I have no doubt Twitter will monetize though - I don't see that as a difference. The difference is in simplicity and openness. Twitter could technically be a part of Facebook - they're not the same, I agree. I was just saying what you were saying mostly applies to Twitter as well. I agree the two services aren't the same.

Robert Scoble · 8 months ago

Dawn: give me a break. Having an idea on a drawing board is irrelevant. If you have something dramatically better after it's coded, let me know. Then let me know how you're going to afford the hosting to keep the sucker running if it really is going to be as popular as you think. Hint: you'll need millions of dollars. To get that kind of funding right now you'll need to have two things: adoption and a great team. Those are NOT easy to get done. Ideas are cheap. Great teams and execution is NOT.

Dawn · 8 months ago

Robert: Believe me, I know all that, and then some.

Mona · 8 months ago

Mobile web - Facebook, Myspace, and Twitter have the market. Facebook has the platform to scale and revolutionalize. No other service does. Facebook isn't going anywhere.

Robert Scoble · 8 months ago

Dawn: well, even if you did have a great team, and adoption, and a great idea, then I'd still have a lot of visibility into what you're up to and so would Zuckerberg. He's already proven he's willing to copy good ideas developed elsewhere (like at friendfeed) so now you not only have to do all the above AND you also have to have a defendable idea. Ain't gonna happen. Would love to be proven wrong, though. It'll be one for the business books.

John E. Bredehoft · 8 months ago

Dawn - while there is a new service on the drawing board that will blow Facebook away, it will take that service at least 3 years to get 1/10th of Facebook's numbers. And even then Facebook won't die. My parents still use AOL, and I still use the occasional Yahoo service (not just the new ones; there are three Yahoo groups that are very important to me professionally).

Mo Kargas · 8 months ago

That's the whole idea of a 'platform' - a place to give you control to do as you will. Spending the time and money to create a platform is destroyed by someone telling you how to use it. It's about the freedom to use.

Robert Scoble · 8 months ago

John: and if such a service does get 1/10th of Facebook's numbers Facebook will either clone it or buy it. Just like they are doing with friendfeed and twitter. Which will frustrate the team trying to get from 1/10th Facebook's size to something bigger. This is the kind of thinking that kept Microsoft out of search. This is why Dawn won't be believed by VC's. She hasn't done it before. If Steve Jobs told me he was going to do it I might believe him. Dawn? Sorry, no.

Dawn · 8 months ago

Robert: There are existing resources that can be leveraged...MAJOR resources...and that's what I'm trying to do. Nobody else is doing anything like it. But you're quite right, this is a very tough environment. Which reminds me of a great line from The Office the other night. Michael tells one of his staff that he's opening a new paper company. The guy asks "In this climate?!" and Michael says, "In all climates. We'll be all over the globe." LOL

Jesse Stay · 8 months ago

Competing with Facebook is like competing with Google - it's much easier to take a few pieces and perfect them than to try and kill the entire site. That's how Facebook has suddenly become a threat to Google. They've iterated small steps at a time without an original purpose of competing with Google.

Mona · 8 months ago

The thing that is so sneaky but clever of Facebook is they 'steal' - but I call it appropriating. Somewhere along the way, Facebook took the lead of the Japanese way, by identifying what works from other services and owning it. They ignore all the talk and criticism, and keep chugging along. They are SMART and will be very successful because of that.

Robert Scoble · 8 months ago

Dawn: well, I wish you luck. I know a hosting team that can help you keep up as your business grows. They hosted YouTube until YouTube got sold to Google. :-)

Dawn · 8 months ago

Robert: You have no idea what my business plan is. There is no way Facebook could clone it.

John E. Bredehoft · 8 months ago

Robert - Zuckerberg has a weakness, and Louis exposed it - do the "wrong" things, and Facebook won't compete with you, at least at first. Create a service with tons of content that allows you to have an alias, self-designed backgrounds, and an unlimited number of friends - Facebook doesn't have all of these, although I grant that if Facebook were threatened, they'd probably drop their rule against aliases and spinning backgrounds real quickly.

Robert Scoble · 8 months ago

Mona: Microsoft stole from Apple. Apple stole from Xerox. Google stole from Alta Vista. Etc Etc. I've seen this cycle over and over again. One of my first questions I asked Steve Wozniak (co-founder of Apple) was how to get another Apple built. He told me that one of the necessary preconditions is that the existing business elite must ignore your new idea for a while.

Robert Scoble · 8 months ago

John: Zuckerberg told me that they are changing the rules (two weeks ago). Soon I'll be able to have unlimited friends. Also soon I'll be able to have aliases and businesses will be able to be a full partner on the social graph. That's one reason that Zuckerberg won't be stopped. He might not be doing things perfectly but he's doing them "well enough."

Mona · 8 months ago

And it works, Robert ;) @John E Bredehoft: I highly disagree. Facebook forcing the public to be 'real' is one of its greatest strengths. Facebook's methods changed social networking forever.

Robert Scoble · 8 months ago

Mona: agreed, but now that Zuckerberg has a good "white pages" with everyone using their real names he now feels comfortable enough to letting businesses join up (and people with fake names, who'll be listed in the "Yellow pages."

Jesse Stay · 8 months ago

Robert, that's one of the things that scares me to death about transparency. Startups can't be 100% transparent these days to avoid getting eaten alive.

Mona · 8 months ago

But at this point, why even waste time? Sure new users may pop up, but a lot of people will be weary of fake accounts, brushing it off as "Oh man, not another Myspacer heading out this way." Smartest decision Zuckerberg ever made - doing it backwards.

Robert Scoble · 8 months ago

Jesse: that's the rub. You've gotta be transparent to get anything done. You'll need hosting partners. Investment partners. PR partners. Etc etc. That requires telling people what you're up to. This is where luck comes in. Remember, Wozniak offered his personal computer to HP and Atari and they turned him down. They didn't think it was important enough of a market.

Mo Kargas · 8 months ago

@Robert: Definitely one of the single biggest mistakes Atari made.

Robert Scoble · 8 months ago

Mo: yeah, or what about Xerox? They invented this whole industry and didn't see the importance of what they had done. They had TOTAL transparency into what was going on and STILL couldn't "get it."

Mona · 8 months ago

One company that woke up: Nintendo.

Richard A. · 8 months ago

Facebook and myspace both have mobile versions but they like to handle everything themselves.

Jesse Stay · 8 months ago

John, Facebook has a superior third-party interface, much more extensive than Twitter's, as does MySpace. I wrote the book on it. :-)

Mo Kargas · 8 months ago

@Robert Agreed, it's amazing what a concrete understanding (and a bit of foresight) into the industry can reap. Plenty of missed opportunities, but not in FB's case, they're onto it.

Mona · 8 months ago

The book you were plugging on the dev forum. I LOVED THAT PLUG HAHA

Jesse Stay · 8 months ago

Mona, I'm still debating wether to make a fuss out of that. Facebook is giving preference to one author over another, allowing them to promote to all developers without allowing other authors the opportunity. I want to be able to do a guest post about my book to their entire list of developers. :-)

Jesse Stay · 8 months ago

Mona, it's things like this that really make me wish I lived in the Valley. I think I could really be building relationships with these folks by attending their parties, press conferences, going to lunch/dinner, etc. Not something I could be doing virtually.

Mona · 8 months ago

I think you belong there too, Jesse. Why don't you move next door to Robert? LOL

Jesse Stay · 8 months ago

Mona, I'd love to - I just can't afford it right now and I can't expect to achieve funding in this economy. Robert's neighborhood would be a perfect location for my family (except the schools, so I hear).

Rob Williams · 8 months ago

I'm not a fan of autofollow for my personal account. I don't mind if Twitter turns off autofollow from their side. As I understand they will allow some services to still use it (like SocialToo), right? What I didn't like was how Twitter made that assumption. I agree with you, when I read the "disingenuous" part I was surprised.

However, I have one Twitter account that is more of an RSS feed on a niche. I interact with that account sometimes, but mostly it's used for announcements. But there are a couple hundred who want those announcements. I decided for that account I would autofollow because they show some interest in that niche. However, when I engage using that account, it's when I filter it by a # tag. So really, I'm autofollowing many people, but only want to know when they use the niche # tag. Plus in this situation, they can now DM me if they need to.

marshal sandler · 8 months ago

Lose site of your customers and you will wind up like General Motors sleeping next to Custer-Facbook Twitter are all attempting to monetize before they plan the direction of their product-Many of these applications were developed by people educated in Technology not Liberal Arts there fore they can communicate with machines not people-they must go back to nature and listen to the BOW WOW not consume Bits and Bytes with their Latte and they need a course in Semantic's and General Semantics -Mitch I don't know you but comments made in anger are childish-why would this article well written evoke your anger HUH ! Calm down write your comments out in long hand then add them you will become a great Worsmith-vulgate language is only to be written in the men's room above the Urinal HEH

funkyboy · 8 months ago

I think you are right Louis, though the style of your post is a bit off-beat. I mean you are usually supportive and "positive", whereas this time looks like you have bitten something that made you angry :)

I just wanted to say I hate as well when somebody tells me how do to something. I can buy a screwdriver and use it exclusively to open boxes or envelopes. And I don't think its designer will come to me to tell me it is made for screws.

But I am both a user of tools and a designer of tools. And when you design you feel you
got "what people want". When you release it and see people use it in an unexpected way, believe me, you feel the need to say "I made it for this and not for that!".

Probably forcing people is not the right way of facing such a situation, but since users have the right to review your product, designers should have the right to say - at least - what was the intended use of their product.

John E. Bredehoft · 8 months ago

Mona, Jesse, I stand corrected re Facebook's API. I should read more. :)

Kim Landwehr · 8 months ago

Any company has the right to develop and control their product they way they want, (its their product), but just because they have the right doesn't mean its the right thing to do.

charlieanzman · 8 months ago

Man Louis ... You started a comment Meme! While I share your sentiments, I think the key to all of this is outright simplicity and ease of adoption (and, of course, who has 'the buzz'). I too am anxiously awaiting the new GUI from Friendfeed. As an early participant, even I haven't found the time to set up groups etc., and miss some of the previously active people (a lot). Both Facebook (in it's newly revised format) and Twitter will continue to see growth due to the simplicity of adoption in people's daily routines. I hope Friendfeed is looking that way! The flexibility and potential of THAT platform is unstoppable because you can me it just about anything you want and have great and interesting dialog at the same time.

marcus5s · 8 months ago

did you know, normal people that have a life besides there PC call twitter just "SMS".

David Esrati · 8 months ago

But that's the key- all these are services/tools- that you don't own- they do.
As long as you are going to "donate" your content to them- be wary.
The simple answer is to take ownership of your own online persona- post on a site you own- don't be a digital sharecropper.
There is no free lunch.

John Andrews · 8 months ago

Well said Mr. Gray. Never over-think things for your customers, they'll figure out what works best for them and vote with their actions.

Christine Perkett · 8 months ago

Great post. Companies need to listen more; isn't that the essence of social media anyway?

VlogHog · 8 months ago

I see nothing wrong with a company recommending how best to use their product. But leave it that.

Jan Ole Peek · 1 month ago

Completely agree with you. It's one thing not to implement a feature, but to build it, let people use it, and then yank it away is pretty lame, and I'm glad to see you write about it and calling them out!