DISQUS

louisgray.com: louisgray.com: Is Requiring a Firefox Plug-in Akin to Designing for IE Only?

  • Rahsheen · 10 months ago
    Feedly wasn't the first time I encountered this. I remember a couple of other services that required a FFx add-on (something to do with browsing the net with friends?). I don't like to rely on add-ons because then I'm left out in the cold if I try to use a different browser (like uh...Chrome?).

    I don't understand the reasoning behind it and I have to agree that, if at all possible, it should stop.
  • Louis Gray · 10 months ago
    We are seeing from some of the developers why they have opted for the plugin route. I helped launch Feedly and like what the team is doing, but more than 90% of the time, I don't even have the option to use it, as I'll be on Safari. If Chrome comes along for Mac, that would just make the barrier to entry worse.
  • Daniel J. Pritchett · 10 months ago
    The "browse the net with friends" add-on you're thinking of was probably Glue. Fraser from Glue's parent AdaptiveBlue showed up in the comments to this very article to provide AB's explanation of the benefits of the Firefox add-on approach.
  • Rahsheen · 10 months ago
    Nah, I was thinking of Browzmi, but sounds like the same deal. You need to be able to "see" the whole web, so it wouldn't work without being attached to the viewer or browser.
  • Louis Gray · 10 months ago
    Rey Bango (http://twitter.com/reybango) is the Mozilla Firefox Add-on Community Manager and says my "assessment & comparison is off base".
  • Mark Trapp · 10 months ago
    A few months ago, I had asked Mozilla for a clarification on their trademark policy for a project I was working on: we wanted to recommend Firefox as the best browser to use our product. This was the response I got from Catherine Brady, of the Mozilla Corporation: "As stated in our trademark policy, 'Mozilla disapproves of and does not provide "Best Viewed With" buttons, when used in connection with the Firefox Internet browser; Mozilla believe the web is best viewed with any standards-compliant browser.'"

    Rey Bango's comments on Twitter do not seem to jive with what Ms. Brady told me: people shouldn't be choosing Firefox as a platform: they should be choosing the web as a platform. Coding specifically for the assumption of a brower plugin is broken, and Mozilla seems to already know that.
  • Louis Gray · 10 months ago
    Mark, thanks for sharing the response. I believe what you're seeing is a hope that all pages will apply to the base level of standards, but the add-on team would also like more - like a "plus" option, meaning that everything that works in other browsers also works on theirs, but some tools will be for theirs and nobody else.
  • ReyBango · 10 months ago
    @Louis: Nope you're assessment of a "plus" option is incorrect. We're providing a completely open and accessible platform for people to develop applications on and in many instances, build businesses as well. The code is available to anyone to use including Apple, Google, Microsoft and anyone else for that matter. You can visit our repos any day and pull down the source if you'd like.

    Add-ons are applications and you're trying to equate them to web pages or sites when in fact, you should be comparing them to iTunes, Jing or Twhirl. In fact, some of these add-ons/applications are built specifically for various OSes which is analogous to the traditional desktop model of application development.

    If you look at add-ons for what they are, applications, you can see that comparing them to what MS did, which was to bastardize established W3C standards for web site development, is comparing apples and oranges.
  • ReyBango · 10 months ago
    @Mark Trapp: I wasn't privy to your conversation with Catherine but I'm fairly positive her reply to you was not within the context of add-ons or add-on development. It seems that you're now taking her words and expanding them to meet your specific needs as "Best viewed..." has always been synonymous with viewing a web page. If you were specifically chatting with her about "Best viewed" badges, how can you now apply her words to add-ons or any other Mozilla software?
  • ChangeForge | Ken Stewart · 10 months ago
    In a word, Yes.
  • Jeff Douglass · 10 months ago
    i avoid plugins. long live the bookmarklet
  • Jason Kaneshiro · 10 months ago
    It's definitely a barrier to me trying any new service, and I'd imagine any service relying on Firefox and a plugin has just limited themselves to a subset of early adopters who are comfortable with such things. Do mainstream users even know what a browser plug in is?
  • xero · 10 months ago
    Don't even have to read the article, the answer is YES.
  • Louis Gray · 10 months ago
    Jason, that's my thinking. I believe Clikball is interesting, and I like(d) Feedly, but I am not going to change my configs just to use one or two services. If you are building a FF plugin, it seems to me you are knowingly limiting your market.
  • Fraser · 10 months ago
    For a few reasons many groups (AdaptiveBlue included) start with a Firefox add-on and then build out support for other browsers. Yes, there are trade-offs with a browser add-on, but there are many things that can be done when you add a web-wide 'lens' for a user that can't be accomplished via a website.

    Think about what we're doing with Glue for a moment -- we allow you to bring your Facebook friends to popular sites across the web (Amazon, Netflix, IMDb, Last.fm, Wikipedia, ...). We then connect you to these friends across the sites, around common objects.

    It's taking a website of Facebook's size to even start on this task, via their Facebook connect initiative. Even still they are not integrated into the top sites that we support (Wikipedia, Amazon, ...) and they will not be able to connect across sites. That level of connection will occur back on their site.

    Yes, having a FF-only add-on is market limiting, but the potential of the feature-set when in the browser is powerful.
  • Louis Gray · 10 months ago
    Fraser, thanks for your response. Glue is another one of those products that I like, and was happy to check out. It pops up every time I do boot Firefox, after all. But when I'm in Safari, which is a ton of time, according to Wakoopa, more than 10 to 1 vs. FireFox (http://wakoopa.com/louisgray/usage), I am not even thinking about your product.
  • Fraser · 10 months ago
    Yes, this is absolutely a challenge for all add-ons, especially ours which appears via passive browsing. If you're in Firefox, in the right context, the benefits automatically appear. If you're not in Firefox, it's easy to forget about Glue altogether.

    We're working on solutions for this :)

    As Edwin from Feedly has commented below, the Firefox community was a natural start for us - good distribution to early-adopters. Our focus on other browsers has grown as our resources have grown.
  • Brandon Titus · 10 months ago
    It's close. Probably not quite as bad (since IE <7 is basically insecure and uncapable of following most html standards). But plugins are more like software than the design of a site so I would compare it more to an application running only on one platform.
  • ReyBango · 10 months ago
    @Brandon Titus: Yes, you hit it on the head. Add-ons are applications and not web pages or web sites.
  • xero · 10 months ago
    Now, after reading it -- your assessment and comparison are not off base. Rey is probably going to argue something about how they are expanding the web by popularizing new features in the browser or how all of the browser teams should allow extensions, etc. While I can agree with the latter, it doesn't change the fact that your comparison is correct.
  • ReyBango · 10 months ago
    @xero: No I'm not going to do that. I will say though that Brandon's description is correct in that add-ons are equivalent to mini-applications built on top of the Mozilla platform. They can be developed for Thunderbird, SeaMonkey and other Mozilla software. The popular open source project, SongBird, which was built on top of the Mozilla platform also provides the ability to create add-ons.

    A comparison of add-ons to web page development is incorrect.
  • Rahsheen ™ · 10 months ago
    I would like for the developers of these services to explain why what they do couldn't be done outside of an add-on, though. That would be educational. Same with Shareaholic. Why is that a add-on?
  • xero · 10 months ago
    I think Brandon Titus has a point with the comparison to developing for a single platform. Given, the motivation for many of the IE-only sites of the past were that way due to not taking the time to make it work on other platforms due to the inherent shortcomings of the popular platform. This would be akin to a Java app requiring the Windows registry to store settings.
  • Sean Kelly · 10 months ago
    You might as well say only left handed females over 6 foot can use this site...
  • faryl · 10 months ago
    Great points. I'm an Apple user and huge fan of anything Apple. That said, I used to live in Seattle and have many friends who work at Microsoft (confession: I love Excel).

    I've noticed a double standard on how quickly people rally to go after Microsoft with pitchforks & torches, yet seem not to notice when Apple or other companies may engage in parallel activities (or activities that at the end of the day, have similar results as Microsoft's offending actions).

    Specific to browsers - I love Safari's speed, but hate it's lack of functionality, so you've definitely preaching to one member of the choir with this post!
  • Brandon Titus · 10 months ago
    If IE (or most other browsers, for that matter) had legitimate extension capabilities, I would question this as well. A site like this requires the add-on in order to provide further functionality that web sites simply cannot provide. A possible solution would be to allow a bookmarklet to get links in, combined with a mini windows like FFs real-time view.
  • Brandon Titus · 10 months ago
    @sean: Not quite. I would say only RIGHT handed females over 5 1/2 feet can use this site. Far larger group, which this is because the majority of interested users would be using Firefox and a larger group of people are using Firefox than the percentage of left handed females over 6 feet I would think.
  • Eric Rice · 10 months ago
    Yes, but Firefox is more hipster-mainstream so it's acceptable. Kinda like how the iPod is sorta a lame MP3 player when you break it down. It's -cool- though, ergo, emotion, not common sense prevail.
  • LouCypher · 10 months ago
    @Eric: yes of course, but what's the point of *social* sharing or *social* browsing or *social* media (you name it) if you can only use one browser?
  • Mark VandenBerg · 10 months ago
    Sure. Why build a car that only drives on a few roads?
  • jeffdoug · 10 months ago
    Great points. I bounce between various browsers. Chrome/Firefox/Opera @ home (hey I'm moody), Safari on my iPhone for mobile, IE @ work. I've given up on sites that don't work across MY ecosystem. Sites like Social Median & Friendfeed that use bookmarklets is where it's at. Plugins like Digg or Delicious i don't bother with anymore...
  • Phil Glockner · 10 months ago
    Good point Louis! Of course, I am commenting on this from within Feedly. :P
  • sofarsoshawn · 10 months ago
    what's a plugin j/k i mean they're pretty obsolete for us hipsters
  • anotherjesse · 10 months ago
    As a clikball developer, I agree that being "Firefox only" isn't good for the web, nor is it good for our project if long term. Users should be able to use your service on as many platforms as possible.

    But, when creating a new service you have to balance the cost of supporting all those platforms from day one. Clikball was just released as "private alpha" a few days ago, and supporting multiple platforms would have meant delays. We are rapidly evolving the user interface, data models and functionality, and having a larger code base for all those vastly different platforms would slow that down.

    We are planning to support other browser through web-based interfaces supporting all current A-list browsers.

    IE extension development sucks (Microsoft themselves basically said that at the recent add-on-con, recommending 3 books, 2 of which are out of print, saying you should do this because your competition won't). Safari doesn't officially support extension (most ways people find to extend it get closed by later releases). Chrome is planning to support extensions, but it will be mid-year at the earliest.

    We are also planning robust APIs to all our interactions in any custom applications.
  • Louis Gray · 10 months ago
    Jesse, appreciate the detail here. I know it is extremely early days for Clikball. If I get the chance, I intend to profile it a bit more. Right now, given I'm in Safari more than 90% of the time, I can't even toy with the product. Looking forward to your continued progress, and yes, we expect the continued suckage with IE. Good luck!
  • Steve Repetti · 10 months ago
    The various idiosyncrasies of today's modern browsers almost guarantees a "lowest common denominator" mentality. While this is a non-issue for minimalist web sites, it is a real issue when it comes to advanced web-based application development. Our solution was to create a JavaScript-based abstraction layer that would hide the differences between the browsers yet provide advanced functionality to our web applications.

    This is fine for many things, however, Firefox in particular has a very specific security model that affects everything from file uploads to advanced drag and drop -- the latter of which is of significant importance to my projects (www.scrapplet.com, www.xwinlib.com, www.radwebtech.com). While IE, Safari, and even Chrome support a common methodology for drag and drop that does not require plug-ins or Active-X controls, similar functionality in FF is only available through a plug-in. Our implementation for FF is less than 4.5k, put it is a plug-in nevertheless.

    What would really be great is if the core requirements solutions that necessitated Firefox plug-ins could be shared amongst developers and therefore minimize the repetitive download requirements for users.

    In my opinion, FF 3.x moves the browser in a better position regarding these matters, but we're not there yet. In the mean time, open source, open sharing, and open mind can help mitigate the plug-in-itis than seems all to prevalent.

    -- Steve Repetti
    www.scrapplet.com
    www.radwebtech.com
    www.dataportability.org
  • kaarlows · 10 months ago
    Maybe the main reason people are less vocal about Firefox only plugins and extensions resides on the fact it's open source and cross-platform, which is totally diferent from IE. But I confess this also bothers me, as I'm an avid Opera user.
  • Louis Gray · 10 months ago
    So you're the one Opera user!

    This story/question wasn't so much about how as a Safari user I don't think I'm getting the full extent of the Web, but instead wondering about how FF extension use not only limits their market, but blocks many people from using what is likely an interesting product. Open source is great and cross-platform is great, but you're still tickling the tech edge and most people couldn't give a rip.
  • kaarlows · 10 months ago
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  • sphilipakis · 10 months ago
    As Brandon commented, providing your services through a Firefox add-on is just deciding to rely on Firefox to deploy your application. You can choose other technologies like Adobe Air, Java webstart, Silverlight or even the Eclipse RCP, the thing is you decide what is the best underlying technology for your application to be installed, maintained and used by as many users as possible.
    The question is : does your service requires an heavy client application or not (does it require to have access to private information or device on the user's browser / computer ) ?
    Right now I don't see IE nor Safari offering what FF offers in this field.

    To me a good way would be :
    1 - design a nice and pure HTML website (browser independent)
    2 - design a nice API
    3 - let the community develop add-ons, adobe air apps, native apps with your API
    sounds familiar :) ?

    Very interesting article by the way (I must admit that at first I though it was a bit "Trollish")
  • Corvida · 10 months ago
    Maybe it's simply tougher to design a plugin that would be compatible for all browsers. Plus, why waste time developing for a community smaller than your "reach" goal when you can do so for one of the biggest, most active & popular browser/community to date?
  • ☂Marcos Marado · 10 months ago
    @reybango sorry, but *requiring* an extention, plugin or whatever, is exclusion, and bad to the web of standards. Also, against accessibility. If the website doesn't run in every browser that implements web standards, the website is faulty, not the browser.
  • Alejandro S. · 10 months ago
    For me, it is. There are a lot of services I don't/can't use because I'm an Opera user. I'm not gonna switch browsers because of one service. All the ones I'm using have bookmaklets that work with Opera (or any other browser).
  • Alexandros Georgiadis · 10 months ago
    IE makes it a point to run only on Windows while Firefox makes it a point to (and does) run everywhere. This is a major difference in terms of potential accessibility for the users, Louis. Come to think of it, requiring FFx is not that different than requiring a desktop client (one available for every platform, in this case). Having said that, one would expect Java, Javascript etc. to be enough to do anything on any browser. And yes, I would prefer the browser not to be a prerequisite.
  • Alexandros Georgiadis · 10 months ago
    Good point, Marcos. I totally agree.
  • agawley · 10 months ago
    Fully agreed. Extensions should be aboit exteding the functionality of the browser (think foxclocks), not extending the functionality of your website. Have avoided firefox extension dependent services too (glue is the latest example for me of a cool service I just can't get excited about). Bookmarklets FTW! However, it might be nice if browsers developed (together) a few open standards that help bookmarklet development. All of that character escaping and monstrous single lines of code drive me nuts.
  • Fraser · 10 months ago
    Glue is about extending the functionality of the browser. To drive this point home we've made the service completely decentralized -- it exists in your browser and there isn't a complimentary website/service.
  • agawley · 10 months ago
    Hey Fraser. I see where you are coming from, but because I use a combination of FF, Safari and Chrome (no evil IE for me :-)) I just can't really get hooked to a service that ties me to one of them.

    Maybe being an FF extension will give you guys a great playground for working out all of this semantic / social stuff, but I'd be surprised if it was where you ended up hitting the big time.

    That said, it's a tough problem to crack for your kind of service. A bookmarklet is neither rich enough in functionality nor able to deliver the 'push' experience you need. A code snippet for website owners doesn't get you coverage as fast as you'd like (especially on amazon etc).

    In the end I suspect you'll use all of these approaches and more, but for now (sadly) I have totake a back seat.
  • Fraser · 10 months ago
    In the short-term we're building out support for other browsers. In the long-term... who knows! :)

    It definitely is a tough problem to crack. At Add-on-Con last December this was a hot topic of discussion. I'd say the group was split between the long-term ability to create a business off of an add-on vs. the eventual need to use the add-on to back-into a web service/site.

    The space will be fun to watch in the coming months as mature add-ons start to figure out their business models.
  • Louis Gray · 10 months ago
    This is the first I've heard of Add-on-Con. Sounds nichy. It would have been interesting to attend and see the many viewpoints of developers, now that Chrome and Safari are making headway, how they see the browser market changing.
  • Fraser · 10 months ago
    It was the first year of the event and as a co-founder of the event I'm happy to say that it was a success.

    The highlight was the closing keynote - reps from firefox, ie, and chrome debated the future of the browser. I think you would have enjoyed it (I'll be sure to send you an invitation next year).
  • Edwin Khodabakchian · 10 months ago
    Hi Louis. Best wishes for 2009. Interesting article. In the case of feedly, Corvida is right: we just have the resources to focus on one extension and decided to go with firefox because it offers the most open architecture and the most "interesting" community. Once we have a satisfactory experience on Firefox, we will look at replicating it on other browsers.

    Note 1: I think that the perception that firefox is a niche market or that only geeks only install extensions is wrong. Just look at the add-ons mozilla site and look at the number of installs of some of the top add-ons.

    Rahsheen: you are right. We should probably explain better why we are building feedly as a hybrid (an extension + a set of back end services) instead of a more traditional website.
  • ReyBango · 10 months ago
    @Mark Trapp: I wasn't privy to your conversation with Catherine but I'm fairly positive her reply to you was not within the context of add-ons or add-on development. It seems that you're now taking her words and expanding them to meet your specific needs as "Best viewed..." has always been synonymous with viewing a web page. If you were specifically chatting with her about "Best viewed" badges, how can you now apply her words to add-ons or any other Mozilla software?

    You're viewing add-ons as web pages which I think is an incorrect comparison. Add-ons are, for all intents, applications, in many ways as capable as desktop apps such as TextMate, Twhirl or iTunes.